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Posted 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Thumper
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Posts: 23
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Are you saying other people can't think for themselves and that this is why you are against full disclosure of the statistical certainty of model runs that indicate AGW?
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Posted 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Terra Nova
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There is nothing to disclose, you idiot, the model runs execute deterministic code. The results are 100% certain.

You are criticizing the wrong thing.

That's how dumb you are.
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Posted 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
hoti0101
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Oh-O, Roger has popped a gasket. Keep the rifles away from him.
http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/ articles/V8/N48/EDIT.jsp

A climate record stretching back in time nearly three-quarters of a million years and encompassing eight glacial cycles was obtained a couple of years ago from the Dome Concordia (Dome C: 75°06'S, 123°21'E) ice core in East Antarctica by Augustin et al. (2004); and now, CO2 and proxy temperature (dD, the ratio of deuterium to hydrogen) data derived from that core have been published by Siegenthaler et al. (2005). We here explore what those data tell us about the CO2-climate connection, which is perhaps the most pressing environmental issue of our day.

First of all, and constituting the centerpiece of the important new paper, plots of dD vs. CO2 derived from the earlier and latter portions of the Dome C ice core (comprising, respectively, marine isotope stages 1-11 and 12-16) and a similar plot from the well-known Vostok ice core are all seen to have essentially the same slope, which suggests, in the words of Siegenthaler et al., 'that the coupling of Antarctic temperature and CO2 did not change substantially during the last 650 ky [thousand years],' or as Brook (2005) puts it in his Perspective about the new work, 'that climate and greenhouse gas cycles are intimately related.'

We agree with both of these assessments. However, the more important question to be resolved is which parameter is doing the major forcing and which is simply following the other's lead.

In investigating this question, Siegenthaler et al. say they obtained the best correlation between CO2 and temperature 'for a lag of CO2 of 1900 years.' Specifically, over the course of glacial terminations V to VII, they indicate that 'the highest correlation of CO2 and deuterium, with use of a 20-ky window for each termination, yields a lag of CO2 to deuterium of 800, 1600, and 2800 years, respectively.' In addition, they note that 'this value is consistent with estimates based on data from the past four glacial cycles,' citing in this regard the work of Fischer et al. (1999), Monnin et al. (2001) and Caillon et al. (2003). Clearly, therefore, it is temperature that is the robust leader in this tightly-coupled relationship, while CO2 is but the humble follower, providing only a fraction (which could well be miniscule) - of the total glacial-to-interglacial temperature change.

This observation does little to inspire confidence in climate-alarmist claims that the CO2 produced by the burning of fossil fuels will lead to catastrophic temperature increases, which predicted warmings, in some of their scenarios, rival those experienced in glacial-to-interglacial transitions. Nevertheless, Siegenthaler et al. stubbornly state that the new findings 'do not cast doubt ... on the importance of CO2 as a key amplification factor [our italics] of the large observed temperature variations of glacial cycles.'

In vivid contrast to this unsupported contention, it is our opinion that when temperature leads CO2 by thousands of years, during both glacial terminations and inceptions (Genthon et al., 1987; Fischer et al., 1999; Petit et al., 1999; Clark and Mix, 2000; Indermuhle et al., 2000; Monnin et al., 2001; Mudelsee, 2001; Caillon et al., 2003), there is plenty of reason to believe that CO2 plays but a minor role in enhancing temperature changes that are clearly induced by something else, which latter italicized point is an undisputed fact that is clearly born out by the new ice core data.

Consequently, whereas Thomas Stocker (the second and corresponding author of the Siegenthaler et al. paper) is quoted by the BBC's Richard Black (BBC News, 24 Nov 2005) as saying of the tight and time-invariant relationship between dD and CO2, without any additional evidence, that it is 'a very strong indication of the important role of CO2 in climate regulation,' we say it is 'a very strong indication of the important role of climate in CO2 regulation.' Why? Because like Mary's little lamb, and as evidenced by 650,000 years of real-world data, wherever temperature went over this period, CO2 was sure to follow, which by definition is 'a very strong indication of the important role of climate in CO2 regulation' and not the opposite.

YOU'RE RIGHT ROGER. OVER.
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Posted 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
lilroff9000
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650,000 years is not the issue, Hurt.

On April 9, 2005 our pet fool Ray 'loopie' Lopez mumbled:
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Posted 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
soonenough1111
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Mr. McGinn I think you should fully disclose your real name, who is paying you to post silly lies about climate models, and how much they are paying
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Posted 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
rojettafoxx
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My name is Claudius Denk. I'm a citizen of the world. I'm not paid to lie by anybody.

But just out of curiosity, what kind of money are we talking about here, if you know what I mean?

(BTW, might you be willing to sign the petition of there was some $
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Posted 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
adrewscudera
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This has nothing to do with the mixing of greenhouse gases.

It's called 'polar amplification,' and it was predicted over a century ago. CO2 and H2O share lines in the IR spectrum, so they compete for energy. CO2, therefore has more effect when the humidity is low. There is more greenhouse effect over dry land and where it is cold.

(Your using an obsolete version of the MSU data. The data on the CO2 science site is both cherry picked or out of date. Go to UAH or RSS for newer MSU DATA.)
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Posted 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
ppope
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Deterministic code? LOL
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Posted 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Cosmo212
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'Deterministic code' a computer science phrase, nothing you would know anything about, James. Basically, it means that there isn't a random number generator involved in a climate model. That is why talk of statistical certainty in climate models is so silly.

Occasionally, when one is interested in statistical bounds one runs Monte Carlo simulations, where model variables are randomly varied, and a range of outputs is produced. This, however, does not compute a statistical certainty. This is is not unique to climate models. It is the way large models of many systems work.
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